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King James and Edward de Vere discuss
King James
Edward de Vere
There have been many questions and “distortions” on Edward de Vere and King James; I hope to clear them up.
This artificial conversation between King James and Edward de Vere (modeled after Daemonologie) will go through REAL documents and quotes, as well to create a realistic conversation as possible integrating the nature of the two writers. It is indeed artificial; yet, I have integrated and extensively referenced everything of importance what King James and Edward de Vere have said and wrote.
Note: citations for referencing are labeled in red, whilst verses are labeled in green. All quotes from actual speeches are in an olive-green colour. All references are listed at the bottom of this document – please refer to them if you wish not to read the conversation I have created.
Edward de Vere: I am very glad to have met you this day; truly ye are the true shepherd of Christ’s flock [1]. There hath been controversies and doubt upon mine countenance, as well as distortion to your person. I think it is meet since thou canst removeth the veils of doubt, and cast the myths thereof into oblivion. Verily, thou art the correct one to dispatch the devil’s tidings.
King James: I perceive many of these questions shall consult upon God’s Word, and the sundry lack of studies from others who hath devised these devilish lies!
Edward de Vere: Firstly, I pray you, dispatch the argument used against us of our poetry and writings, and secondly, rebukes to the various actions we are accused of (such as Papistry, Witchcraft, and Sodomy).
King James: It is very meet that one writeth poetry away from the Bible, lest one confuseth the words of God therein like the papists [2]. If one should confront the Bible, there should be an distinguish of the two. I oft wrote of pagan gods in mine poems [3] – yet I was not ignorant of the true divine: Jesus Christ. Christ deserveth not to be stuffed in a poem (as the papists stuff their god in bread [4]); rather, Christ deserves the glory in truthful writings. I think one can shadow truths from Jesuits, the devil’s pernicious vermin [5], that teareth Christ from the hearts of men [Luke 8:12-13], as ye have done in Othello by calling them Turks [6], I also hath done the same in writing of them in mine Meditation of Revelation.
Edward de Vere: Indeed, I also hath exposed a plot of the Jesuits to kill that good Queen Elizabeth [7] in which they now have an unquenchable wrath against me. As ye know, Queen Elizabeth oft called me “her Turk” for that reason – and for my traveling to Italy. I think of a truth, that God’s Word to be influential and the source of wisdom, I did read mine Geneva Bible daily – for – faith cometh by hearing as ye have stated in the Basilikon Doron [Romans 10:17]. I hath wrote sundry references to the Words of God in my plays, sonnets, and other attributes thereon.
King James: This can be so if directly inferring without mixing the Bible, as you hath done in the Merchant of Venice on Act I, Scene 2, ye write: “I know it is a sin to be a mocker,” in this I applaud, ye even go to saith: “God defend me from these two,” for God is our defender [Psalm 31:2] and comforter [John 14:26]. However, thou should remember, the Apocrypha canst not be taken as God’s Word [8].
Edward de Vere: There hath been questions upon Freemasonry, what are the troubles therein that it merits? I certainly am accused of such an act – as ye are too.
King James: Indeed, Freemasonry in its highest forms goes against Biblical assets, one of the most prominent is of oaths, we are commanded not to swear or make an oath – lest they come at us upon the bema [9]. There wast occasions that I hath hired an Freemason for building by the name of William Schaw, and, attended their vain meetings (which is comparable to a papist mass of murmuring and repetitious prayer [10]) as part of a King’s duty; but only Christ is the truth, I never hath heeded their lies [11], nor have I gone in their rituals that climb high as the sins of Papistry [Revelation 18:5]. I heard there are many, who, believe that thou art a Freemason? This cannot be, you hath wrote in the sonnets: “And broils root out the work of masonry.” You surety wert addicted to learning thus have associated many aspects including Freemasonry (but as yet, ye never did entertain your countenance to be partaker and sup at the devil’s table, merely writing as a form of poetry). I assume this is but an jest of the masons and how your works shall pass for longevity, however, the Jesuits, those damnable Turks, may distort us in due time – but by the grace of God the truth shall remain.
Edward de Vere: Indeed I wast verily addicted to learning [12], I read books from afar on all subjects including Freemasonry – and if they wert far from mine sight – I did hath them commissioned and ordered such as the Geneva Bible I doth read. Thou art correct, truth shall remain as I have wrote: “For truth is truth, though never so old, and time cannot make that false which was once true.” I also referenced this in Measure for Measure: “For truth is truth, to the end of reckoning [13].” I would ask thee to dilate upon Papistry.
King James: Ye hath indeed tasted Papistry and Satan therein [7], also, being troubled by many Papists such as Vavasour’s uncle – who hath lamed thee (in which ye cleverly wrote of such in thy sonnets). In all certainty, you clearly abandoned the papists – for, they have indeed given you perdition – ye now come back to the truth and call me the true Shepherd of Christ’s flock. Concerning the Papist massacre of the Huguenots, from that devilish Gregory XIII, ye commented it: “And think, if the Admiral in France was an eyesore or beam in the eyes of the papists, that the Lord Treasurer of England is a block and a cross-bar in their way [14].” I hath written in Daemonologie, Basilikon Doron and Meditation on Revelation about the erring of Papists in numerous depths [15]. Clearly we are unfit to be Papists for we hath both enraged the Papacy. Of truth, Queen Elizabeth would indeed abhor us if we followed Papistry.
Edward de Vere: Please expound on the accusations of Sodomy.
King James: I reject Sodomy as a sinful practice in the Basilikon Doron; by doing those sins ye shall never forgive your conscience, or have an hard time doing so [16]. There hath been many who accused me of such; they wert removed from mine office and were erring in points of religion: they wrested God’s Words in their own conceits instead of following the precise rules set down [17]. As for you also, they maketh lies in their vain imaginations, Henry Howard, Charles Arundel, and Francis Southwell hath created a long list of false accusations [18], they vainly say ye hath taken a young Italian boy; this seems the more fraudulent that I can never believe it!
Edward de Vere: I would trouble you once more to refute claims of witchcraft and pagan philosophies that many attribute to our being.
King James: I believe I hath made it clear with the very title of my book “Daemonologie” that I wrest not my conscience with the devil or his devices therein that are a snare [19]. As for ye, it was, again, the three “Henry Howard, Charles Arundel, and Francis Southwell” who accused you of demonology.
Edward de Vere: I thank thee very much for clearing all matters up, and dispatching the devil into his place and all accusations thereof.
FINIS
References:
[1] Edward de Vere calls King James “the true shepherd of Christ’s flock” In a letter to Robert Cecil in 1603.
[2] King James writes in Daemonologie: “...and many words of God, confusedly wrapped in...” referring that people often mix God’s Word with pagan things – such as Catholics, Jesuits, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Muslims, Freemasons etc.
[3] King James writes in his sonnet #10 “O Furious Mars, thow warlyke souldiour bold,” however, this is not inferring that King James believed in silly pagan Roman gods – it was simply poetry and meant to be taken as poetry, not as God’s Word or biblical studies.
[4] King James writes in Daemonologie: “I think it is so contrary to the quality of a natural body, and so like to the little transubstantiate god in the Papists’ Mass, that I can never believe it.”
[5] King James calls the Jesuits “pernicious vermin” in Meditation of Revelation, as well as expounding of “Turks” as well correlating to de Vere’s Othello.
[6] Edward de Vere writes in Othello: “The desperate tempest hath so bang’d the Turks That their designment halts...” Turks refers to the Jesuits and Armada.
[7] “During the latter 1570’s, the whole-souled Oxford had remained unsuspicious as his intimacy with his Catholic cousins and their circle of intellectual friends increased. Finally... they recklessly confided to him, in December, 1580, their plans to overthrow Elizabeth and place Mary Queen of Scots on the throne of England. To their horror, Oxford went at once to the Queen – the sovereign to whom, as a feudal knight, he had sworn undying fealty.” - The Renaissance Man of England, Dorothy and Carlton Ogburn
[8] King James writes in the Basilikon Doron: “And as to the Apocrypha books, I omit them, because I am no Papist, as I said before”
[9] King James writes in the Basilikon Doron: “and especially, beware to offend your conscience with use of swearing or lying (suppose but in jest): for oaths are but an use, and a sin clothed with no delight nor gain, and therefore the more inexcusable...” this is a very strong statement from King James, saying that oaths are the MORE inexcusable [before God].
[10] King James writes in Daemonologie: “And this far only I touch, that when the conjured Spirit appears, which will not be while after many circumstances, long prayers, and much muttering and murmuring of the conjurers; like a Papist priest, dispatching a hunting Mass...”
King James writes in the Basilikon Doron: “In your prayer, be neither over strange with God, like the ignorant common sort, that prayeth nothing but out of books”
[11] King James writes in the Basilikon Doron: “I thank God, I was never ashamed to give account of my profession, howsoever the malicious lying tongues of some have traduced me...”
King James writes in Daemonologie: “My intention in this labour, is only to prove two things, as I have already said: the one, that such devilish arts have been and are. The other, what exact trial and severe punishment they merit...”
King James writes in Daemonologie: “...the Law of God, wherein are all Magicians, Divines, Enchanters, Sorcerers, Witches, and whatsoever of that kind that consults with the Devil, plainly prohibited, and alike threatened against.”
[12] A poet in 1569 said this about Edward de Vere: “I do not deny that in many matters, I mean matters of learning, a nobleman ought to have a sight; but to be too much addicted that way, I think it is not good.”
[13] A quote that survives under Edward de Vere’s name: “For truth is truth, though never so old, and time cannot make that false which was once true.”
A quote inside Measure for Measure: “For truth is truth, to the end of reckoning.”
[14] Edward de Vere wrote this to William Cecil in 1572: “And think, if the Admiral in France was an eyesore or beam in the eyes of the papists, that the Lord Treasurer of England is a block and a cross-bar in their way.”
[15] “ ...holy-water (whereby the Devil mocks the Papists)...” - Daemonologie
“And therefore as in the time of Papistry, our fathers erring grossly, and through ignorance, that mist of errors overshadowed the Devil to walk the more familiarly amongst them...” – Daemonologie
“And therefore I would not have you to pray with the Papists, to be preserved from sudden death...” – Basilikon Doron
[16] King James writes in the Basilikon Doron: “There are some horrible crimes that ye are bound in conscience never to forgive: such as witchcraft, willful murder, incest, and sodomy.”
[17] King James writes in the Basilikon Doron: “But above all, beware ye wrest not the word to your [own] appetite, (as over many do), making it like a bell to sound as ye please to interpret: but by the contrary, frame all your affections to follow precisely the rules there set down.”
[18] Henry Howard, Charles Arundel, and Francis Southwell accused Edward de Vere of: demonology, heresy, treason, homosexuality, “buggering a boy that is his cook and many other boys,” such as one brought back from Italy, habitual drunkenness, declaring that Elizabeth had a bad singing voice, swearing to murder various courtiers etc. These are all false, and often, many people attribute these to be “factual” not understanding that their purpose was to spread lies about Edward de Vere.
[19] King James writes in Daemonologie: “...but only such, as first willfully deceives themselves, by running unto him, whom God then suffers to fall in their own snares, and justly permits them to be illuded with great efficacy of deceit, because they would not believe the truth (as Paul saith).”
Related Articles:
Basilikon Doron
Daemonologie
Meditation on Revelation [20:7-10]
Are you a Pharisee? Saved by Christ’s righteousness
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