Steve Piecnzik's interview

From http://www.prisonplanet.com/jones_report_042402_pieczenik.html

 

Interview of Steve R. Pieczenik - Alex Jones Show - April 24, 2002 (Partial Transcript)

Dr. Pieczenik served as Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under Henry Kissinger, Cyrus Vance, and James Baker. He is a Member of the Council on Foreign Relations

AJ: Our guest tonight is Dr. Steve Pieczenik and he�s one of the world�s most experienced international crisis managers. He has over twenty years experience in resolving international crises, working for four U.S. administrations. Dr. Pieczenik served as Deputy Secretary of State under Henry Kissinger and Cyrus Vance and James Baker. Working with Secretary of State George Schultz, Dr. Pieczenik has used his psycho-political expertise for the Secretary�s mediation of conflict in the Middle East between Israel, Jordan, Syria, again it goes on and on. He�s got best selling books. He�s basically an infowarrior, a crisis manager. In fact he, according to this and some of the news articles that we pulled up on him, coined the phrase, if these articles are accurate, this isn�t even in his bio here, but it says it there in some of the news articles, the �crisis mediation� and it�s just endless. It says in one of the bios here that he is also a member of the CFR. Steve Pieczenik, I really appreciate you joining us on the show. Of course, he is also a doctor and PhD as well. Good to have you on the show this evening, Sir.

SP: Can I call you Alex?

AJ: You certainly can.

SP: You can call me Steve, Dr. Pieczenik or Steve, that�s fine with me.

AJ: Well, Sir, I mean you�ve got a long bio here. (Crosstalk) just want to mention to the listeners out there.

SP: Sure, anyway what would you like to start with Alex?

AJ: Tell us a little bit more about yourself. Any key areas of your life, so folks know who you are.

SP: Sure, I�ll be happy to. I started as a, I was a medical doctor training at Cornell University Medical College here. I worked my way up through scholarships and then got into the military. I was, during the Vietnam War, I was a very young O6, as many of you know, that is a colonel at the age of 32. I then went on to my training in psychiatry, at the same time at Harvard, and at the same time, I got a PhD from MIT in International Relations.

AJ: Now that was the first MIT PhD, in this particular form of psychology.

SP: Correct, Alex. And the reason for that was that I understood very clearly, a long time ago, thirty years ago that the very essence of relationships between countries and understanding what our national security is about has to lie in the psychological political arena. It�s not, necessarily that I am interested in what mother did or your father did, but I am much more interested in what kind of image perception propaganda has been created against us and what propaganda information we have to create against someone else. For example, one of the presidents whom I served. Unfortunately, he is ill now. But one of the most brilliant presidents I served and most people don�t recognize his brilliance. I think history will (garbled) and that is President Reagan, who was, as you know, an actor. But he had a photographic memory. And he understood the importance of psychology because he had been an actor and he understood that perception becomes reality. Well, this is a gentleman who using the study that I had worked on thirty years ago and had been intimately involved with him, using psychology and the concept of the perception, we were effectively able.. It�s a team effort. I�m not saying myself only. But Reagan was effectively able and the Reagan administration to bring down an entire Soviet empire without firing a gun by simply manipulating the psychology of perception. That we were forcing them into bankruptcy, which we were through the SBI (?) program and at the same time, manipulating their mind using the Chief of Staff. If you want me to go through the detail and showing him what our military capabilities were. And once he saw that both on land and on sea, he basically gave up. And that was Akhromeyev, who was then Chief of Staff of the Soviet military who was an Admiral, and who eventually committed suicide. But from that point on, we broke the entire, we won a war without having to fire a bullet. And that is the kind of thing that I talk about � psychological or psycho-political dimension.

AJ: We are talking to Dr. Steve Pieczenik and he has worked at the highest levels of the psychological operations for four administrations. You are talking about controlling paradigms � paradigm management.

SP: Well, that�s interesting. I�ve never used that word paradigm but you clearly � you must be a professor, Alex. But the notion is. No, what it is it�s a more sophisticated concept. For example, what I do is, I don�t just manage a conflict. I may sometimes be sent in on behalf of, for example, Secretary of State Schultz and Reagan. I was sent down to give Noriega a message officially that we would like for him to leave and we would provide the two planes, so and so and such and such. Well, he clearly, my sense was that he was not going to leave. And as many of you remember, this was a general who was chief of narco traffic out of Panama. And so, I would come back and report it.

AJ: I�ve got to stop you for a second. This is intriguing. I have seen it reported that then in the military build-up before the strike, that they employed the psychological technique of having the Delta Force and others do raids in and out of the area, touch down for six months, to de-sensitize them, so when the real attack came that they wouldn�t respond with

SP: That�s correct. I can�t confirm or deny it but I can say yes. (laughs) That�s exactly true.

AJ: You may not know it, but they had that on the History Channel.

SP: Oh, I didn�t know that was on History, then I can say yes. OK, I�m glad you told me, yes. General Cisnero(?) and I, we worked on a psyops program, that�s psychological operation, and we are very good at that. I don�t mean me. But the United States is. And we�ve lost some of that capability over the past administration. I�m not pointing fingers. We lost about 40% of our military intelligence capability. And I would come back and every year talk at the National Defense University at Carlyle War College � as a way of showing my appreciation to the military and try to train them in psychological operations. Some of what we saw � we saw that very effectively done in Afghanistan. When we basically gave warning to all the civilians and then we basically went in and broke up the Taliban and then starting going after al Qaeda. We used a lot of psychological operations on (garbled) which I can�t go into but we are using it right now, hopefully, around the world because of the 68 countries now with al Qaeda individuals, 68 countries filled with al Qaeda membership, including our own country. And we�re are using both psychological operations, we are using military....

AJ: Let�s talk about his story. I mean we heard it was twenty dollar bills, now it one-hundred dollars bills, with just the picture of George Bush. And I mean that�s an obvious propaganda move and even the person pulling the hundred dollar bill out realizes that it�s propaganda but still can�t help having a pang of liking George Bush for that split second. So, isn�t that acclimating them, conditioning them, whether they like it or not?

SP: Well that�s a good point, Alex. Yeah, I mean, there have been crises, for example, where I had three buildings here held hostage by a fundamentalist group called the Hanasi(?) Muslim. And he knew he was being manipulated. The FBI called me in and I used the Koran to take over the control and eventually he couldn�t help but follow the orders that we giving to him and he eventually released the hostages. And so, in that sense, it�s a very powerful tool and we are getting back into using that very effectively. That�s exactly right, Alex.

What I do � I�ve done a lot of negotiation, I do a lot of stategy and tactics where I�ve done a lot of things. For example, with the Gorbachev and Reagan negotiations, with Arafat, I worked against him, I would track down terrorists and then I worked against Arafat, I worked with Osama bin Laden in �78, �81. In �79 when he was in Afghanistan and with Saddam Hussein when he was our ally and I worked against him when they weren�t our ally.

AJ: Now again folks, we are talking to Dr. Steve Pieczenik and he is one of the infowarriors in four administrations, crafting much of the police that we have seen over the last twenty, thirty years. And I am so honored to have you on the show tonight. I hope we can keep you for a while.

SP: I�d be happy to, Alex.

AJ: I�m not going to mince words, I�m going to cut to the chase.

SP: Sure. Go ahead.

AJ: About these technologies that you are talking about that are great for defending the country being used by the wordsmiths, by the spin doctors, in camps in this country against the American people. Whether it�s gun control or big government or any of it. And I�ve seen the telltale signs all over the place. And that�s why we have you here, so hopefully the American people can become more aware of these tactics. I mean, certainly it�s just 101 Marketing to use psychology, but it�s getting a little more sophisicated than that. Can you ..

SP: Well, yeah, I agree with you Alex. One of the things that I have been in disagreement and it keeps coming out of the conservative movement. I mean I�ve worked with these - is that the issue of the suppression of our civil liberties is unjustified and particularly in this case on terrorists. And when I mean specifically, for example, I can understand that we have to have vigilance and we have to have surveillance. But you do not change the constitution or alter it to such a degree that we have posse comitatus, which I hope your audience understands � that means military control can come in and take over civilian control. That�s a no-no.

AJ: Well I had the former professors on this show, the former JAG colonels and generals, they say it was gone in �96 and they are concerned about it.

SP: I�ve very concerned about it because what happens is, you know generals � I have a lot of respect for but it�s not generals that make the decision. It will be a consultant who works for somebody in the White House who may not necessarily know what he or she may be doing. And then we are talking about civil liberties and profiling � where you suddenly get thrown off the plane. They won�t tell you why. You could be blond, blue haired, you could be dark and brown eyed. I mean I was almost in preventative detention down in Reno, Nevada, and I said to the police, can I use the word terrorism? He said no. Can I use the words, are you arresting me? He said no. Then why are you sorting me out? And they couldn�t give me an answer. I said you are making a big mistake, you are violating my first amendment, you are violating my second amendment, and every other amendment. Can I talk about guns? No. So basically that�s where I agree with you and your audience and that is we cannot let the federal government or any government suppress our liberties in any way whatsoever. Now, is there propaganda that�s given to the American public. Absolutely. And I say that...

AJ: Let me stop you professor. What was this story where they come out and go � oh we�ve got the office of strategic influence, strategic laws and manipulation, and then we are going to activate it. But we all know it was already operating for hundreds of years. Every country has one. Then, so that was a lie to say it new. Then they say, oh we are not going to use it anymore, we were just proposing it. Your take on that.

SP: Well, I was actually, but don�t call me professor. One thing I am not is a professor of anything, but I do join you in saying that I tried to stop that vehemently on the radio. My neighbor who is around the block was in charge of that and I don�t know her all that well, Ms Clarke. It was clear to me that they didn�t know what they were doing. What they were doing was creating what we call of fusion of what we call blackops, black operations meaning covert, and white noise, that means real facts and information. Well, you don�t do that in the military. The reason you don�t do that anywhere in the United States, but particularly in the military is that you compromise the integrity of our military and at the same time, it was the stupidest idea I�ve ever seen because they said they could divide the lies from the non-lies and I said that�s ridiculous. Furthermore, we have had problems in the past where the CIA and other organizations that instill disinformation in overseas countries and American reporters pick it up as fact. And then they have been really hoodwinked and the American public doesn�t know what is fact and what is reality.

AJ: And then that discredits the media organs which are needed by the government to form public opinion.

SP: Well, it�s interesting that you say that. There has been an interesting kind of balance. CNN has been very, I would say, pro-Palestinian or pro-Arab in my ways, what I would consider. Whereas, thank God my friend Roger Ailes is the head of the MSNBC network, which is more conservative that the FOX network, where you can see some questions. Like Chris Matthews and the O�Reilly Factor, where we can get into some issues and really start discussing them from another perspective. That is, it doesn�t have a particular bias that is lent by the government. Now, it�s true, sometimes the government brings in, you know, they want to give their message. But if that message is out of whack, I�m more than happy to go on the air and say that guy is not telling the truth. And that�s why I go on these radio stations to say look, in my opinion, now I�m not gospel and I�m not, everything I say is not written in stone. I�m as human as anybody else. But I�ve had a lot of experience. And one of the things that I do not believe in, is the notion that policy, that�s what is unfortunately true about Washington. Politicians consider most of us, as American citizens, as pretty stupid and not very bright. And they think they can herd us around. And the answer is, they are mistaken. And I�ve said that repeatedly, that they have underestimated the intelligence of the American public, repeatedly, administration after administration. But this time around, Alex, we don�t have the flexibility, because we are in what we would call a constant struggle or war against the El-Jihad and the Muslims � Islamic fundamentalists who are more than happy to destroy much of what we have. And we can�t afford, at the same time, to be told all kinds of stories that do not correspond to reality. So that is where I do agree with you, Alex.

AJ: Okay, thank you for that. You were, again, deputy assistant Secretary of State....

SP: That�s correct.

AJ: under Henry Kissinger, Vance and Baker, in key positions in many other administrations, you are also a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, correct?

SP: Yeah, I know what you are getting to. But I�m also a member of the National Rifle Association, too. I didn�t put that down. The real issue of the Council on Foreign Relations, this is where you would be concerned and others is that the Council on Foreign Relaions was once, many, many years ago, I�d say 15 or 20 years ago, a very elite Northeastern organization. What it has really turned into is pretty much, with all due respect, I think that is an old resume, but basically I haven�t attended a meeting in well over a year or two because it has become very much a rotary club. Basically it is the same people, returning by, saying the same thing and I eventually found it of very little help. It was an organization basically designed not to influence or direct everything, although, many of the secretaries of state have come out of there previously. Particularly before World War II, right after World War II.

AJ: Since 1922, when it got founded, it was out of the Royal Institute of International Affairs..

SP: Right, it was the Rockefeller family that funded it and built it up and there was a sense that there was a conspiracy here and I can tell you for a fact that a member of the group that you are talking to, that it is not any more conspiratorial there. There is a far more serious organization that we are concerned about and that�s called the Carlyle Group. That�s a private equity group run by a guy named Carlucci who is a former Secretary of Defense that are profiting very handsomely from this war. And I�m very much concerned about it because it because it could spread it.

AJ: See, that�s amazing because I got some of the � I don�t know if you knew that some people were making some transcripts of some of your comments on KFI and I�ve got them here, I don�t know if they are accurate. But in these, you talk about the CIA and bin Laden in July and the rest of this ...

SP: Correct.

AJ: That�s accurate, you said that?

SP: Yes, that is accurate.

AJ: Okay, Sir, I want to hear this from you when we get back.

BREAK

AJ: We are talking to Steve Pieczenik and he has got more titles than the Queen of England. I mean he has been all over the place. No, I�m serious. You have really led, and I envy all the dangerous and exciting situations you�ve been in and I didn�t even know if I could believe this bio and did some a little LexisNexis search and you actually play yourself down a bit on your website. Why don�t you give that to them Steve.

SP: Oh, I can�t. Alex, I think you did a good job. I�m more than happy. Let�s talk about bin Laden.

AJ: Your website for those who don�t know it...

SP: Oh well, my website is stevepieczenik.com and I have a new book coming out called, �Active Pursuit� under the name of Alexander Court, and another one called �Active Measure� under Alexander Court, C-o-u-r-t, that will be coming out this week actually. It�s about the violation of Sweden, how hypocritical Sweden was during World War II, in establishing neutrality and actually helped the Nazis.

AJ: Yeah, they made a lot of money off of it.

SP: Oh, they made a huge amount and the Wallenburg family in particular, made a lot of money and then they violated everything we stood for. And we forced Raoul Wallenburg to join the OSS to make up for their totally treacherous behavior but the worst part about it was that I wanted to. See, I use fiction to put reality in. And one of the comments was, I went after one of their famous Nobel Prize winners, an extreme liberal, by the name of Gunnar Nordahl, who accused us... I remember when I was up in North Korea and I saw him, he said that Americans were despicable, we didn�t like human nature and all of that. I said I�m going after this guy and I found out and I put it in the book. And the Swedes have never denied it. This is a famous Nobel Peace Prize winner and he wrote the welfare state. How do you create the welfare state? Well, of all things, Alex, what happened was, and this was a fact they never denied and I put it in the book in �Active Measure� by Alexander Court, and you will read it there. What he did was to sterilize innocent Swedish women between 1945 and 1974. He sterilized over 75,000 innocent Swedish women who had nothing more than perhaps, you know, abnormal a little bit of behavior problem, or they were teenagers. But the real reason was for economic reasons. He didn�t want to have any problems with a potential abnormal child so they thought this was the best way to maintain their financial capability, maintain their welfare state. So much for greatest of free....

AJ: Sounds like Margaret Sanger.

SP: Well, it�s a lot more deadly than Margaret Sanger. This is a real effort to really neutralize their entire population and the guys are saying you are doing it for the welfare of the state. That�s called euthanasia.

AJ: Absolutely and we see that now being legalized in many of those Scandinavian countries.

SP: That�s correct and they don�t... they have denied...they have said we are looking at, and actually the kids don�t know about it. But it�s one of the things that again, again not all Swedes are bad but the point is that their government has been playing two-faced with the world for a long time, as many governments have and that is what your point is, Alex.

AJ: Now Dr. Pieczenik, what I want to talk to you about tonight....

SP: is bin Laden and the....

AJ: Let�s get to that. We are about to break and start the next hour. Let�s talk about it then if you�ve got time right now.

SP: Absolutely, I�ll give you the time.

AJ: I want to talk about Henry Kissinger. I mean this guy, I�ve got his quotes on record where he says if there is a big enough crisis, we�d accept a new world order, global government. I mean he has said stuff like this on television and you worked under this guy. From talking to you, it sounds like you�re 180 from the views of Henry Kissinger.

SP: Well, you are right on the nose. I, this I can share with most of your audience, that I was asked to work for him personally and I said no. I couldn�t, for many reasons that I don�t want to get into but primarily that I didn�t have the temperament to tolerate his type of, what we call, narcissistic behavior. He is very impulsive, childish and he rants and raves. As a psychiatrist, I don�t tolerate that and set limits very quickly. Secondly, I didn�t agree with his views but his deputy, Lawrence Eagleburger, who has been under (garbled) management has seen me negotiate the release of about seventeen hostages, (garbled) and he asked me if I�d come on board and work for the U.S. government. I said, no problem. I had a military commission. So the answer is you are right.

BREAK

AJ: We are excited to have a great guest, an intelligent guest, like Dr. Steve Pieczenik on the show. He has worked in four administrations. He has worked for the deputy secretary of state, hostage negotiator, the list goes on and on. He is a critically acclaimed author of psycho-political novels and co-creator of the best-selling Tom Clancy�s Op-Center and Tom Clancy�s Netforce series. He is a Harvard psychiatrist with an MD from Cornel University and PhD in International Relations from MIT. The doctor served for four presidential administrations. Again, now let�s start getting into this whole bin Laden situation and I�ve got a bunch of emails and I got a partial transcript of it and I called the station to confirm that you were on but they didn�t have a transcript. And....

SP: You know, what I said was Alex, this is following issue.

AJ: We are talking about bin Laden for those that just joined us.

SP: Right, but we are talking about bin Laden. The issue is what the relationship is between the bin Laden family and the Bush family. It�s much more complicated than has been revealed, than has been revealed by anyone. And that is that it goes back for several decades.

AJ: Back into the mid-70s.

SP: It goes back, exactly. They have now, Bush, Sr, who I have served as well, and Bush, Jr. have literally gone to the bin Laden family and the Carlyle Group. This is the private equity group here in Washington, which the bin Laden family have been in. And they claimed they only had 2 million dollars, but my sense is that it was far more extensive, that they owned all kinds of companies, including one of the largest conglomerates in our military contracting. And bin Laden was, remember, our ally, supposedly our ally in 1979, �80, when he worked with us to drive the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan. He was just a young kid.

AJ: Brzezinski talks about that in �The Grand Chessboard�.

SP: Right, and that he then turned against us and we created a political Frankenstein. And that�s not the first time we�ve done that Alex and this is what I want to tell your audience.

AJ: You are saying it is blowback.

SP: It�s blowback, exactly. And what I was saying about a blowback was that if we tend to have a pattern here in the United States and it has to do, I think primarily with the fact that we don�t have good intelligence or good CIA capability to handle all of our so-called in between or gray-zone friends/enemies. And what happens is we just dump them. It was the same thing with Noriega. We had to go in and send in 22,000 troops. It was the same thing with Saddam Hussein, we fought with him for five years against Iran. We killed over a million people. We supplied him with the actual biological and chemical weapons. It was the CIA that did that. Suddenly we find ourselves at war with him. That was a blowback. Then we go to war and we don�t finish the war. Now we are going back to war again. And I am trying to say, wait a minute guys, if you messed up the first time, what makes you think you are going to do it again the second time. And so we have a blowback with Osama. But what made it more difficult was, I found out through my sources that he had had kidney disease. And as a physician, I knew that he had to have two dialysis machines and he was dying. And you could see those in those films, those made-up photos that they were sending us out of nowhere. I mean, suddenly, we would see a video of bin Laden today and then out of nowhere, they said oh it was sent to us anonymously, meaning that someone in the government, our government, was trying to keep up the morale on our side and say oh we still have to chase this guy when, in fact, he�s been dead for months.

AJ: You are talking about the obvious fat guy, sitting there that looked nothing like bin Laden.

SP: You�ve got it. I mean the whole thing was a, I mean it was such a hoax. I mean I said you would have to be, you know, blind and stupid to not realize that this is really being manipulating in trying to manipulate us.

AJ: The type of psyops that we�d see coming out of Dr. Steve Pieczenik.

SP: It�s not the kind of thing that I would do to the American public. But the more important part was that ...

BREAK

AJ: We are talking about Osama bin Laden, the CIA asset during the �80s, right into the early �90s and now the mainstream reports here out of Europe and the U.S. confirming that he was involved in the situation in the Bosnian and the Serb war. And then what Dr. Pieczenik is calling the classic term �blowback� � the bad boy getting out of control and this report of him in the American hospital. It�s been in the Washington Times, you name it, getting nursed back to health, meeting with the CIA Section Chief for ten days. Dr. Pieczenik, a former undersecretary of State and member of the CFR, you name it, can say, oh yeah that�s true but he�s got an explanation for it. Please elaborate doctor.

SP: Well, I don�t have a very good explanation. I was shocked as well as you were in that what is a Station Chief doing seeing Osama bin Laden when he was already declared an international war criminal under the previous administration and then the Station Chief testified, with several others, that the whole family � the notion that the family of bin Laden when they evacuated and left this country and then was subsequently interviewed, said they had no relation with bin Laden and that they didn�t know where he was and all that nonsense. It�s just sheer nonsense. And so when that popped up and I saw that, I said there is a lot of things going on here that don�t make sense. And that means that they are using bin Laden in a way that the United States government or you call Big Brother is basically using it in a very, ah, ah, ah, how should I say this, nefarious, in a very dangerous way to manipulate the American public.

AJ: A pretext to get more control.

SP: Well, it�s a pretext to get, I don�t know if I would say more control. They are not very good at controlling this. Because it�s really, it has really discredited the ability of the government to handle a simple situation without having to insult the intelligence of the American citizen.

AJ: And you are saying earlier that you brushed up against this at an airport, I believe you said Nevada?

SP: Oh yeah, in Reno, Nevada, where literally the police came and just took me away. And I said, what are you after? They searched me three to four times. I said, look you know, I�ve written these profiles. They didn�t answer anything. That�s called preventative detention. I said am I under arrest? They said no. I said what are you holding me for? And, can I tell you, well I won�t use that language on the air what I said to them but basically, this kind of activity is just totally unacceptable for the United States of America.

AJ: And again, according to the press reports, you are the guy that coined the phrase, or did you, �conflict management� or..

SP: I use what is called, I call it �crisis management.� I�m not sure I�m the original one, but I�ve used it for most of my life and basically every crisis from Arafat, in evacuating our soldiers, to evacuating our civilians, to going into hot spots in Cambodia and trying to stop Pol Pot from another killing field and still being on the hit list of a lot of terrorist groups all over the world. Still on the number one hit list of the Red Brigade in Italy, they still want me.

AJ: Okay doctor, everything you are saying makes sense and we have had other CFR people on here couple of times and they are elitists. They..

SP: I don�t want you to think of me as a CFR, all I did was pay dues. I�m haven�t attended a meeting in four or five years. So if you could use another title, I�d appreciate it Alex.

AJ: Alright, I mean there are so many, my point is I�ve had these other guys up and they�re pompous, they don�t even seem that smart. Compared to having another talk show host on, but you seem very intelligent and obviously so, I mean working around all these people. I mean here you are talking about this bin Laden situation � give us your intel on that or what you have heard of the info you have...

SP: Well, it�s not a good situation but it basically says to me that this is an orchestrated type of war and I think that I didn�t want to believe it for a very long time. And then I said that somebody is orchestrating something here with the agreement of the bin Laden family, knowing fully well that he would die. And I think that Musharraf, the President of Pakistan, spelled the beans by accident three months ago when he said that bin Laden was dead because his kidney dialysis machines were destroyed in East Afghanistan. Well, he was one of few that knew that he had a kidney problem. That wasn�t well known before. Everybody thought he had a heart disease

AJ: Exactly, but we have him in this American, called the American hospital, and that report was confirmed

SP: That was confirmed that he had kidney disease. So, what happened there is that we have Bush, Sr., Bush, Jr, dealing with the bin Laden family and then going to war with this organization that we effectively created in 1970s and 80s, when we drove out the Soviet Union. And that was the conversion, again blowback, of the young mujahideen where we gave them armament through the CIA again and that was no great secret. Everybody knew that and then there was a blowback.

AJ: They knew the blowback was coming and allowed it to happen. Again, I am absolutely blown away, doctor, because this is in all the evidence that I have. I have over a hundred mainstream articles, government documents, Northwoods, you name it, on infowars.com in the government prior knowledge section. And, to have you up on this show, I mean I didn�t know which direction you were going to go and I just had some of the transcripts from another interview that you did, but it�s amazing and now more and more people are saying it. But look, they created bin Laden, they use him, the family is in bed with the Bushes back in the mid-70s, and you are talking about a stage-managed war. I mean, you just said it. I mean, boil it down for us. What are you saying, a former deputy secretary of state, what are you saying?

SP: Well what I am saying is, I mean as a deputy assistant, what I am saying is that I am coming to the same conclusion that you came to. And that is, and I hope I�m wrong, but more and more evidence points to the fact that somehow, given who the people are that they appointed to the Dept. of Defense, they were civilians who had never been in the military. The same guys who were in Iran-Contra dealings. And then you have the same people who are involved with Saddam Hussein � Cheney and you have Condoleezza Rice who really wasn�t all that much impression and the same whole cast, very tightly controlled and they are managing something that doesn�t make sense to me. And that is, yeah there was an attack on the World Trade Center, yet we don�t really know who did it. And the president shows and says well here I have the evidence that bin Laden did it. Well, if bin Laden did it, then why was the first mention and the first order that was given, and I think you would remember this, so would your audience, is the FBI has to evacuate the entire family. If you were to go into a criminal scene or investigation, you wouldn�t say to everybody there, if you wanted to know who the culprit is, and you say oh that�s the culprit, let�s get rid of the whole family and not ask anybody any questions. That was a big mistake.

AJ: That�s another red flag, another smoking gun that I didn�t even put in my 144-minute tour de force film that�s has so much evidence every 5 seconds, there�s some new document or news release or public statement. You�ve got them, when all other aircraft are grounded, other than the military, you�ve got jets flying out of Florida and Boston ferrying this Royal family out of here.

SP: That�s exactly right. And so the question becomes, what�s going on here? And then the last one is of course is the fourth plane which had seventy-five minutes, in other words, those of you who are particularly � fighter pilots understand this. You can�t fly at about three or four-hundred feet off the ground and at seventy-five minutes out, you have to go out to the Chesapeake and the ocean and you are telling me that we couldn�t get fighter planes in there? When we had already had two attacks and you are telling me that that was not a military pilot who was trained to crash into the Dept. of Defense? That�s unbelievable and that was a sleeper. So, I can�t put that all together, but I�ll put all together and it�s not a good picture, Alex.

AJ: What was a sleeper?

SP: The guy, the one flying that plane into the Dept. of Defense. Those guys were sleepers. I mean you�ve got to explain, does your audience understand what, a sleeper is a concept that came out and it�s actually, they are agents that are trained that came out of the old cold war where the Russians would create and have individuals who were trained to kill and then they would be activated many years later. If you saw the movie, The Manchurian Candidate, you�d get a good idea of that.

AJ: MKUltra mind control

SP: MKUltra mind control, exactly.

AJ: You know this is incredible. We�ve got one of the pre-eminent hostage negotiators, psyops guy, you know, worked with Tom Clancy, worked in four administrations, and then here you are with all the information.

SP: It is very disturbing to me Alex as it is to anyone of our American citizens who is not buying it.

AJ: So why did you decide to start going public with this? Was it getting....

SP: I went public with this, no, I went public, well I�ve always been kind of a maverick. But I was offered an O7, and I said look I work alone, I�m a singleton basically and I work on my own and I work for my country. I never got a pension. I never really got paid much for what I did. I often had to pay back most of the expenses. I�m not telling you how great I am as an American. But as an American citizen, the reason that I went public, the first thing that bothered me was when Vice President Cheney was (garbled) for having had at Haliburton, and that big corporation that he had in oil, which he was given $35 million for all his knowledge in oil which he had none of, he had been a former secretary of defense, he had put in a embargo on Iraq and then he denied that he didn�t know anything about the embargo � the fact that they had violated the embargo by having a $75 million joint venture with Iraq and at that point I said, that was the straw that broke the camel�s back for me. Cheney was just outright lying and he committed a crime by violating an embargo. And I said these guys are in trouble and I�m going out publicly to say this can�t continue. Not as an American citizen, I�m not going back to war. I�m not going back and letting American soldiers die � for something that may have been concocted or created. It�s one thing if we are attacked by the Nazis or the Japanese or something. I�m not denying that we were attacked. The question is who did what and how it was orchestrated and if it was orchestrated, then we have a real problem and that will destroy our democracy. That�s why I went public � and you know that.

AJ: Doctor, stay right there. I am shaken by this. You know, David Schippers, the guy who impeached Bill Clinton, said basically the same things on this show and more and more great American inside the system, cold warriors are blowing the whistle. We�ll be right back with our guest.

BREAK

AJ: ..Deputy Assistant Secretary of State, he is best-selling author, works with Tom Clancy, you name it and he is concerned. I�m glad that more and more Americans are concerned about government prior knowledge and involvement in allowing September 11th to take place. And, you know, Dr. Pieczenik, a lot of people don�t understand, they say well if the government had prior knowledge of September 11th or allowed it to take place, like FDR allowing the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor. They had it on the History Channel. Well, how did those guys then fly aircraft into buildings? And my only point is this: all you need is a double agent like bin Laden who we know has been an asset of the CIA, to go in and hype up the Islamics. Then the door is open and they are allowed to come in ...

SP: Well, you know, I�ve got .. Go ahead, Alex, keep going...

AJ: Then their names are kept out of the Customs computers. Then the watch list doesn�t get to the airlines. Fifty-eight minutes they had to shoot down the second plane that hit the World Trade Center and, as you said, seventy plus minutes to get that other plane. So, example after example, and then somebody with an incredible track record and serious resume like yourself comes out with an analysis that I don�t even come out with on the air, even though that�s what I suspected � most Americans can�t grasp sleeper agents. If you start talking about this, because of the military precision of the Pentagon attack or even what we saw with the twin towers. I mean, again, elaborate on this for us. This is earth shattering.

SP: Well, it�s earth shattering for me, too. It was the kind of thing that I wouldn�t want to believe. I mean, you know it�s not like I just came out of the closet and I was a whistle blower. I want the audience to understand. I�m a patriot and I�ve always felt strongly that the reason that I served my country is because it�s an honor to serve, to serve the people. I don�t serve a institution or a government that got out of control. And by the way, I wrote a book about this years ago, called �State of Emergency� where I said that we are going to have fights about the devolution of federal power, but basically it was over water rights in the Colorado River and occurred over Nevada and Arizona and that�s what�s happening � it�s States vs. federal rights.

AJ: Sagebrush rebellion.

SP: You got it. And let�s go back to that. And then what�s bothering me Alex and I think you articulated it better than I have was I didn�t want to believe what I was putting together. And you are beginning to articulate it and this has been going on for well over six to nine months. I mean I have been saying for a long time even to the individuals involved and whom I know personally in the White House and elsewhere, you are making a mistake by bringing in the people that you are doing, you are signaling to those of us who are knowledgeable these are not serious people. These are people who have caused problems in the past. And something is going on here. And that�s why when you get a guy like Cheney, Vice President, believe me this is a micromanager. There is nothing that goes by that he does not know and that�s the reason he�s got five heart attacks. But I don�t find him, not one of them has served in the military, other than Armitage. But not one of them has ever....

AJ: Richard Armitage, this guy is hooked up with the short trading, caught red-handed on United and American in that story...

SP: Is that true, is that what you have him on?

AJ: Oh yeah, we got it in triplicate.

SP: Okay, well I�m not surprised, part of the neocon group again is a conservative group of guys who come from the extreme left that suddenly have an epiphany and go to the extreme right. So one of the reasons that I was concerned is that we�re heading in for a war that is partly orchestrated by us and we went into Afghanistan and that was one of the phoniest things that I have ever seen where General Kelly said, and he finally admitted, that we made a mistake. We used these war lords as the surrogates for fighting instead of American soldiers. And I�m saying, what is this a joke? I mean what idiot is going to believe that. I mean anyone who knows the war lords, knows that they are the most distrustful, dishonest guys in the world. They run narco traffic through Afghanistan. We went through this before after ten years, twenty years before. So what is this nonsense about suddenly we win a war in Kandahar and Mazar-e-Sharif in twenty minutes and it turns out we didn�t win anything. What happened it was a revolving door. Everything that we were going after, al Qaeda, they took in and made their exchanges and then it had to do with issues of a pipeline being put down in the north of Afghanistan. It goes back to the Carlyle Group and Unocal. Unocal, then I started checking the records, put up a one-hundred billion dollar bid and this is open record. You can check it in front of the Congressional committee and UNOCAL and that�s one of the big five put up one-hundred billion to put up an oil pipeline up to the Caspian Sea to that base where they found trillions of gallons of barrels of oil and we could dump the Middle East that way. And that started to explain to me � well, you�ve got Cheney, you got Bush, the oil boys, they are concerned about that pipline, you�ve got the Carlyle Group and then you�ve got the neocons forcing us to get into wars with people who have weapons of mass destruction. Well, there are a lot of countries that have weapons of mass destruction. That doesn�t mean we go to war with them.

AJ: Professor, we�ve got to break again. This is one of the most riveting shows we have ever done. It�s amazing to have you on the air with us and I know you don�t want to be called professor, its says that in one of the bios. Doctor, we�ll be back after this quick break.

BREAK

AJ: Steve, I have to be honest with you. I though that you were going to come on and make excuses for what happened with the bin Ladens being in with the Bushes and...

SP: No way, Alex, I�m an American. The one thing you don�t do as an American is you don�t play and mess with my constitutional freedom. I don�t care who you are, what your name is, what you think you are. When you mess with that, you are going to see me retaliate. And I warned the White House. I warned them, quite frankly. Some of the people who are involved because they know me well. I said if I can help you up there and I helped both Bushes to get elected. Trust me, I�m going to help bring you down because you don�t play with the American public and their freedom. And you don�t play with lives, American soldiers� lives that I value, because not only am I a physician but having been in wars, seeing these boys die for who, for whom, and the answer is no - as long as I live and I have a breath, I will still fight for that constitution. The constitution was based, created by men who understood what it meant not to centralize power, to make sure that we had the freedom of the individual and that the individual was more important than the State.

AJ: And that is why our country has produced so much and now it�s all being squandered. So, again,

PS: We are not producing anything Alex. We�ve become a third-world country. Right now you�ve got China is a big problem. They are producing more than we are. And what are we sending out � billions of dollars. We are creating a nonsense organization, Homeland Security. I�ve never heard of such idiocy. Seventy-six billion dollars for a man who has never run anything, totally emasculated, Tom Ridge, a nice man, as a governor who doesn�t know anything. He never saw a terrorist in his life.

AJ: I�ve heard of Homeland Security � that�s what Sturm Stoffel, SS stood for.

PS: Well, I don�t want to go that far but the point is what came out of the seventy-six billion dollars. You got the color red, yellow, green and blue to tell me, what am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to do?

AJ: They are going to have nightly alerts and FEMA is going to activate our TV and radios, they told us.

PS: Sure, that will be the day.

AJ: Recapping before we get into any other subjects that you�d like to discuss.

PS: Let me recap it very simply so that I make my position. I have not just suddenly come out of the closet. I�ve come out in a very distinct position my whole life. I stand by what I believe. I have served different administrations not because I served the administration but I served the American public. That�s the way I viewed it. I was the only one who resigned. I mean Cyrus Vance is proud that he resigned on Carter but I resigned over Cyrus Vance�s handling of the Iran hostage siege because he sent me one of these left wing nuts by the name of Ramsey Clark. I knew we would never have a chance to deal with the hostage negotiation and like chess, when you open up the move, you lose a lot of time. And we were in deep trouble. So, I said Mr. Secretary, you are incompetent. And so I quit and that�s the kind of guy I am. And that�s why I�m not in this administration or others. When they called me in, believe me, there is a lot that hit the fan. And the reason why I come back in is because I cleaned it up for the American public. Not for the president who�s elected, not for the people there because they have become too self-important. What we have created, it�s not a democracy but we created for ourselves is common royalty. And they think they are that indispensable and the answer is no man is indispensable to lead this country. No man. And every citizen is indispensable. And when you get to that point where we have to salute the flag � we have five different police forces here in Washington and jet planes flying overhead. Give me a break. And that�s what I believe in. The American way of life is very simple. Let�s us do what we do. Leave us alone. Don�t get in my back pocket and don�t come into my bedroom. That�s how I believe.